Is this murder or manslaughter?

tegleha · 10-17-2008, 09:23 PM

Two guys get in a fight over a woman. One grabs a fireplace poker and starts after the other guy. The other guy has a gun and it is all legal and legit. The guy with the gun shoots the guy with the poker in the shoulder. The guy with the poker stops for a moment, but takes a few steps closer to the guy with the gun. The guy with the gun pumps three more bullets into the guy with the poker and kills him. Is this considered murder or manslaughter?

Pridecomesbeforedefault · 10-17-2008, 11:30 PM

manslaughter - passion provocation but if I were the lawyer, I'd argue self-defense

PatF · 10-18-2008, 01:38 AM

Probably self defense.

John4431 · 10-18-2008, 03:45 AM

Assuming you are asking about the person with the gun, then it is probably neither. In California we call this justifiable homicide a.k.a. self defense. There is no crime to kill another person in self defense assuming certain conditions are met.That said, if we change the facts and make it the shooter who starts the fight, then it is probably manslaughter. 1st or 2nd degree murder typically requires some type of premeditation, which you facts do not offer. The law school example of manslaughter is when a man finds his wife in bed with another man and shoots one or the other in a fit of rage. It is considered less serious than premeditated murder because the law recognizes the sudden "heat of passion" led the husband to kill the other.

dontknow86 · 10-18-2008, 05:53 AM

They will try for murder, Why did he have the gun on him, (Ive been in trouble and in court lots of times) If he can prove he thought he was going to beat to death they will drop it down. He needs a good att.

Falconer71 · 10-18-2008, 08:00 AM

depends on the state, in florida he is good to go

KARIW · 10-18-2008, 10:08 AM

I'm with John.

laughter_every_day · 10-18-2008, 12:15 PM

probably neither. If the jury believed that poker-man escalated the fight and then the gun-man reacted to a reasonable apprehension of an imminent threat of serious bodily harm, then it would be justifiable homicide and that is not a crime at all. Manslaughter involves heat of passion or an accidental killing in the course of an illegal act.

rajak · 11-14-2008, 01:16 AM

in the UK it would be a murder charge. indeed there is not a 'charge' of mansllaughter in English Law. it would then be up to the defence to prove that either a) he acted in self-defence, in which case there may be no case to answer, or b) he had dimished responsibility and therefore it was manslaughter.

note though, that if there was an element of alcohol in the equation, then it would be outright murder. this is because all tests in English law are tested on their 'reasonable-ness'. in the eyes of the law the reasonable man is never drunk, so it would be murder. on that note, in self defence, here in England we are only allowed to use reasonable force, which doesnt amount to gunfire. remember that farmer who was done for murder for shooting a traveller that was trying to burgle his house?

English law sucks. but it also rules. (no pun intended). thats why so many other legal systems (but not the US's) is based on ours.

T

bigb46 · 11-14-2008, 01:41 AM

lol I just want to know if this is just curiosity, or a life experience of someone teg knows.